John Wesley died poor coz he didn't read the bible.

I heard someone actually say this once and wanted to get some reaction from you all on this. The theory is this; Luther and Wesley and all the other church fathers that did not preach the "God wants you to be rich" gospel (which is no gospel at all) died poor beacuse they did not have the "fullness of the revelation of God." Yet we have preachers by the droves preaching about money and money and if they have time money. Money conferences and so on--but how many of them are doing the amazing revolutionary work that Luther did or Wesley or Barinerd or Sunday or Spurgeon? I really was struck worng by this little statment. Paul died a pauper, was he lacking revelation? How about John Baptist? what about me? If i die a poor man or a middle class man did i miss the fullness of the revelation? gimmie Jesus--that's all i need---Any thoughts on this? PLEASE NOTE I DID NOT SAY THIS I AM QUOTING

The theory is this; Luther and Wesley and all the other church fathers that did not preach the "God wants you to be rich" gospel (which is no gospel at all) died poor beacuse they did not have the "fullness of the revelation of God.""fullness of the revelation of God." This shows how nutty people are for money. Honestly, I really don't even think these prosperity preachers believe what they're selling. It's just that they have discovered the secret to wealth in America: convince enough people that you have the secret to wealth. WOF Prosperity preachers remind me of this Charles Shultz "Peanuts" cartoon...Lucy is standing behind a booth with a sign that reads" Advice on how to get rich for $5.00." Linus walks up and puts a five dollar bill in her hand. Lucy stuffs the bill in her pocket, and stares into space without saying anything untill Linus finally speaks up, "Hey, aren't you going to show me how to get rich?"Lucy holds her hand out again and replies, "You weren't paying attention."MC

God Wants to Bless His Children.By blessing His children, though, I don't think He is going to load up His "faithful few" with beatiful treasures to die of moth and rust for our own personal enjoyment.The prosperity Gospel sees Wesley and Luther dying as poor men. It must be extremely awful to live a Christian life where you have no money because it's all being spent on doing that whole advancing the Kingdom thing. Passing on to see God face to face at the judgment would much more fulfilling if a Christian left a Hummer behind - a sign of his Faith - compared to one who financed missionaries and assisted in the salvation of thousands.The prosperity Gospel forgets one thing in its cry from the pulpit - "Do not love the world.." If a true relationship with God depends on how much you can get out of Him instead of how much He can get out of you, you are part of a selfish, man oriented, man-centered, pleasing to the eye, moeney seminar in place of church service religion.It's all about God's Glory. "May the Lamb that was slain recieve the reward of His suffering."Not: "May the sinner that was saved receive the reward of satisfied customer."In His,DOI Pet 4:2

:-) You guys should lighten up on these Word of Faith people. After all, wasn't Job's friends Word of Faith?

brethrenthe thing is whatever wealth the Lord bestows on us is not for us to live in multi-million dollar mansions with the finest furnishings and parade it on mtv cribs along with a fleet of expensive tricked out cars...the idea is that the whole body of Christ should benefit from it. case in point in Acts chapt 2 vs 42-47 the word says this:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from F5 house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.and then in acts chapt 4 the word says this:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.note vs 34, none of them lacked for anything because they all shared what they had. this shows what we ought to do with our wealth. however we're not often that open coz we like the concept of "my stuff is my stuff and i'll take whatever i can of yours too..." the bottom line though is that the reason that these believers were so able to do this is outlined in vs 32, they were of 1 mind, heart and soul in the Holy Spirit of God and so their sharing so well was a function of this oneness in the Spirit.for us to come to that place we will have to be pushed into it by dire economic circumstances where survial will mean banding together. out of that depseration and despair we will indeed cry out to God who will hear us and pour out His Spirit on us anew and we'll see (finally) what we've so sought and what the Ravenhills and them prayed for untill they died, REVIVAL!!! Revival will come when we are in a place of complete desperation where we have no choice but to seek God.Lord send your REVIVAL!!!AMEN.

I had to repsond to this one,Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. did Jesus lack revelation?

PR 17:5 He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished.&PR 22:2 Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.& PR 28:6 Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse.

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness, fight the good fight of faith ....1 Timothy 6:10-11It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. (Many people omit 'the love of'.) Interesting that Paul says that having coveted money, people have erred from the faith. We can see that's true! And 'coveting' is one of the Ten Commandments.This "prosperity gospel" is a big curse on the church worldwide today. Prosperity cannot be gauged by $$ or ££ or whatever currency your country has. It disqualifies the two-thirds world who are poor and not at all rich with cash. We in the one-third world (the west) are VERY rich ; the poorest of us are rich in comparison. It makes for a very wrong gospel when the have-nots are made to feel second class Christians because they do not have this world's goods.It makes a total mockery of the parable Jesus told of the woman who willingly put her last two coins into the temple offering; the rich gave out of their abundance; they did not even miss it. She gave of her last chance to buy food to keep her alive. She gave all.The poor old apostles were excluded to - to quote Peter "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee - in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk! I know I would prefer to have been walking instead of being lame from birth; money cannot buy healing. ... or can it? I once overheard someone say "I have paid my money, now I expect God to heal me"!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?:-? Sue

the thing is whatever wealth the Lord bestows on us is not for us to live in multi-million dollar mansionsIn this day of world awareness we have no for excuse for hording our wealth while millions of our brothers and sisters around the world are suffering in poverty. We will be judged some day.I don't know why this fact passes over the radar of the Wealth and Health community. It shoud be obvious that there is a lot of poverty. Besides, it should be obvious in scripture that we are responsible for our fellow man - ie the disadvantaged. Diane

John Wesley died "poor" because everytime he got money, he was giving it away. He made millions in his lifetime. He took the parable of the man who was getting rich and storing it in a bigger barn quite literally. One is a fool to think they are rich simply because they've stuffed as much money as they can under their mattress. My pastor pointed this out once, and I've never forgotten it. Where the prosperity preachers miss it is from a Biblical point of view you are prosperous simply if you have all your needs met. My pastor, who doesn't make but $35 grand a year or so, considers himself rich. He says anytime he needs anything, God has supplied his need. You are well off financially if you have everything you need.

Pro 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.

Good words brother Gary.2 Cor 9:10-1110 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. NIVWe so often consider riches based on what we posess or can hold in our hands. God does want to make us rich and in every way not to hold on to it but to be generous, to give it away for His glory. What the early church understood is that being rich is having more than you need so you can share.Jeff

Hello Jeff,Wesley notes for those two verses you quoted read:2Co 9:9 - He hath scattered abroad - (A generous word.) With a full hand, without any anxious thought which way each grain falls. His righteousness - His beneficence, with the blessed effects of it. Remaineth for ever - Unexhausted, God still renewing his store. Psa_112:92Co 9:10 - And he who supplieth seed - Opportunity and ability to help others. And bread - All things needful for your own souls and bodies. Will continually supply you with that seed, yea, multiply it to you more and more. And increase the fruits of your righteousness - The happy effects of your love to God and man. Isa_55:10In 2 Corinthians, Wesley quoted a verse that Paul quotes from Psalms 112:9 that says:Psalm 112:9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth forever; his horn shall be exalted with honor..................................................Wesley then quotes with 2 Corinthians 9:10 a verse from Isaiah 55:10 which says:Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:Then Isaiah 55:11 which John didn't quote reads:Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it..................................................Notice in his notes for 2 Corintians 9:9 that John has in parenthesis the words {a generous word}. This man Wesley, who seemed to give away the wealth that came into his hands, teaches of the seed of the word in his notes instead of going into the literal seed of their gift. Wesley prefers tho think of the {and increase the fruits of your righteousness} from the verse 2 Corintians 9:10 as the return from planting the seed of the word. It seems to me that Wesley stayed focused on the word instead of being caught up in finances.

Thats one of the occasions when the NIV adds to scripture instead of subtracting from it...I'm sorry, but I'm not so sure I see the difference in what either verse is saying in the two given translations? In this instance, both are utilizing the exact same greek, and the issue is simply one of which is the better translation of the same greek text in this verse.Perhaps the issue you are debating is "being enriched" (KJV) vs "you will be made rich." (NIV/NASB) This phrase is being translated from a word that is a present middle/passive adverbial participle. It is a word that is continuous in action occuring in present time. The most literal translation of this word would be "while being made rich..." The NIV/KJV translations imo, are equally valid. In part, I like the KJV reading a little better, because in general you translate participles with an "-ing" suffix. At the same time though, especially with words that are middle/passive (as in this case) you need to often use the word "being" in translation, of which the KJV does nicely. However, the KJV also makes it sound this is some simple past happening by putting an "-ed" on the end of enrich. This is not some simple past tense happening, it is something that is occuring right now, continuously, over and over again. Thus, the NIV/NASB take a sort of future tense translation, so that one is not confused about it simply being a past event. However, if one is not careful one might read that they are not presently enriched.In my opinion, the KJV/NIV/NASB both make good translations out of this participle, all equally valid, each with it's strengths and weaknesses. I think I might bring this verse to my Greek teacher's attention next week... especially since we are currently working on understanding/translating participles.

Thank you all for the Greek lesson. I have a great desire for linguistics because I understand that communication is based on a common definition of terms used in order to convey a concept. My question would be does the spirit of the concept change with the linguistics? Is not Paul intimating the same concept as Jesus, "And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." ASVIs not the principle that, there is no room in the heart of man to have two masters, God and money?Does not James say that the problem with our 'asking' is that we are motivated incorrectly, that we may gratify fleshly desires and not act as children of the Father who gives liberally?It is not the riches that are evil but our passionate pursuit of them for self. Like Wesley I have a passion for the Father and the Son, but if He will allow me to distribute riches that men will repent at the goodness of God, then with this I will also be grateful.Thanks again,Jeff

So long as the translator is attempting to be faithful to his task, and faithfully translate what is in front of him, then the spirit of that translation will be faithful to conveying the same message. Slight nuances might be lost in translation, but so far as I have studied in Greek so far, sometimes to render a word/phrase most literally to encapsulate the entire range of that word's meaning in Greek would make it impossible to understand in english. So, a smoothing out of things is in order. Obviously if you cannot understand a phrase translated most literally, then you will obviously fail in conveying the spirit of that message.