Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

I believe we are living in a time of change. Their are those who are ready to throw away all the old in order to bring in the new. Much the same as what happened in the sixties rebellion.May I say change of methods does not guaranteethe move of God.One of these changes is to do away with all the shepherds.I have a few questions concerning thistype of change.Will you dedicate your entire life to servingone another, 24 hous a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year?Will you spend 5 to 6 hours a day in study and prayer, work a fulltime job, call on those in need, and take nothing in return?Will you live in a house where anyone of Godscreatures have access i.e. scorpions, snakes, rats, cockroaches, frogs, skunks and yes even those who would take your life?Will you be there to hold the hand and pray withone who is passing, no matter what their appearence may be?Will you search out and find a lost brother or sister, even if you must enter into a stench that will make you gag?Will you hold the body of a little girl a police officer hands you with tire treads across her chest, or one who's head has been cracked openlike a walnut.Or a young man who has been split in two by a drunk driver?Will you live without, do without, and go withoutso others may have something?Will you spend your life being judged, your wife judged and your children judged, by those who have never walked in your shoes?Will you crawl out of your sick bed and go minister to one who is sick?Will you continue to do these things without thought of a 401k, a retirement home, or a condoby the sea. Willing to finish only when he calls you home to be with Him?Will you like countless numbers of men and women through out history, deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow Him?Will you do all these things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him?If you will, then God Bless You, you have discovered what it cost to change.If you will not, then take heed, Luke 14:33 saysWhosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.Before we throw out the old, maybe we should count the cost.yours for christ,pastorfrin

Dear Shepherd, Your questions are right on the mark. Let me ask a few more.Could it be that some people are not trying to "throw out" the true shepherds, like you, but are tired of enduring pulpiteers who do not care for the sheep? Didn't Jesus call them hirelings?What would happen to the sheep if there was a true shepherd, one as you described for every twelve sheep?Of course the only way that would be possible is if the shepherds truly did lay down their lives. If they worked a forty plus hour per week job to support themselves and never slept or spent time with their families. Is that what God is asking for?Or maybe instead of throwing out the shepherds we should throw out the system. Where in the New Testament does it discuss the office of a pastor? Where does it say that he should have absolute rule and dominational governance over the sheep?Where does scripture endorse using the holy tithe of God's people to build temples?Maybe if we would throw out the ideology of the world system of kingdoms and rulers we could begin to use the tithe to support true shephers who will lay down their lives for the sheep.I know that this sounds radical but Jesus words to the religious establishment were pretty crazy sounding also. Didn't they say He had a demon?I'm open to a better way.Jeff

Some good questions...But are some of these questions in reference to specific events or things?

I won't be doing all those things, Pastorfrin, honestly... That was a pretty indirect post so I guess you were asking me as much as anyone(?). I just won't be doing all those things.Are those the things you normally do? Not a challenge, I've just not met many people who actually give warnings like that and live them every day of their own lives. Talk to ya soon.

Philippians 3:7-8 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.This is what we are to give up for Christ, any works that we think makes us a better person for Christ. Philippians 3:4-7 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.Paul forsaketh all that he was for the excellency of the knowledge of knowing Christ Jesus, to preach Christ and Him Crucified and with all that Paul knew in, of, and by Christ all Paul wanted was still to "know Him." What is a mans cross? Can he carry it and save himself? Who knows what the cross of a man is? Can a man who's cross is appointed by Christ carry it by himself? Paul's cross was appointed from his mother's womb. He was appointed to suffer for Christ's sake. Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.This was Paul's cross, The Cross of Christ, Phl 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.Let us win Christ and all things will be added unto us.In Christ: Phillip

"The LORD is MY Shepherd, I shall not want" ;-)

Biblical Hermeneutics professors, these are hermenutical foxes in the hen house I worry about. They prove everything by hermenutics and most generally forget the Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher The Father sent by the prayer of Christ Himself, to reveal all things to the believer, even hermenutical error.Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Not in self. By this belief, even to those that believe on His name are son's of God.Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.In Christ: Phillip

Hi pastorfrin,Before we throw out the old, maybe we should count the cost.Ah yes, so easy to be the armchair quarterback these days. Pathetic that the attitude creeps into the Body of Christ and becomes the attitude of folk towards the Shepherds.Its easy to talk up things. I knew a 'pastor' once who was also a Sheriff. Some of the things he told me were horrible. I have known of pastors to have to deal with things that would drop most of the complainers. Imagine having to tell a bleeding dad his 13 year old daughter was killed in the same accident by a drunk driver; found in a concrete ditch. Imagine having to answer all the "WHY! WHY! WHY's!" at the hospital as loved ones are passing and families are looking for answers. I wonder if the complainers ever sat at a hospital ALL night? Or ever get out of bed at 3:00 AM to counsel with a congregational member? We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs.

Pastorfrin,If more pastors and those in leadership WERE like the examples you have given, the church would not be in the state it is.....the "sheep" look to the Shepherd to show the way. Most of the sheep are not looking for a "perfect" Shepherd, they are just looking for one who is truly following THE SHEPHERD and not the world. Because many Shepherds have lost the way and become not much different than the world, the sheep have been led astray or they scattered. I highly doubt most sheep who love THE SHEPHERD are very happy to have been scattered. They WANT to have a shepherd(earthly) who is listening and obeying THE SHEPHERD because they know they will be led to good food ---this type of shepherd will show evidence of this faithfulness to THE SHEPHERD by his life---- in word, deed and true abiding faith.Concerning the shepherds though, like I tell my children, if something doesn't apply to you, don't take it to heart. If you, as a Pastor, are doing those things the Lord has called you to, do them with joy----knowing HE is well pleased (you will never please ALL men, so don't even try). If however, the sheep have real issues, don't belittle those either. I think there is fault on both sides----and it all stems from a lack of genuine commitment to the Lord and to the Body of Christ.Pastorfin, many of the sheep just want to see examples like that of Paul............"who count it all dung" for the cause of Christ----to LOVE as Christ loves. That is what encourages those who are weaker in the faith to keep going and persevere---because they see others do it (more mature in the faith), and know, if they too lean on the Lord, they will make it through whatever difficult time they are in. May YOU be abundantly blessed with all SPIRITUAL blessings as you seek and do HIS will. In Him, Cindy

We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs. Need I say again?

Yes, Robert say it again, and again…..And say more, please, For God's sakeArmchair quarterbacking you write? Perhaps it's called Internet Christianity and it may just be doing more harm than good in some instances. When we use PASTOR in quotes, nearly afraid to use the word, yes possibly something is terribly amiss. A genuine heart for revival, and then a rebellious spirit against Godly leadership and authority are growing together. But let not our hearts be troubled, God will separate it all out with precision.

Dear Pastorfrin,I am thrilled that there are men of God like you caring for the sheep. My hearts cry is that the Lord of the Harvest would send forth more laborers like you so that the sheep would not be scattered having no shepherd.Luke 14:27-3027 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying,' This man began to build and was not able to finish.' NASBHow will God find such laboreres who count the cost the way that you did? The current system is producing a scant few. I believe that the Lord will raise them up through discipleship by men of a broken and contrite heart like yours.How will we keep them serving the fold if we use the means of support that God ordained for His anointed to do other things?I pray that the Church will catch the vision that providing for selfless shepherds like you is far more important than buildings and programs.Thank you for your sacrifice for the sheep given as unto the Lord.Jeff

Hi Tony,Perhaps it's called Internet Christianity and it may just be doing more harm than good in some instances. Isn't it strange that you could almost get the impression that we are overrun with folk trying to get into the pastor positions as it is such a coveted function that everyone wants to get in it. The truth is, the rate of attrition is tremendous among pastors and they are aging in our circles. Why? Folk simply are not responding to the call. Why? Because they are told that going into the ministry will ruin their life- so they go on into other- more lucrative jobs. So this leaves us with a small base to pull from. Now consider that there are stipulations to functioning in these roles. That narrows the field even more. Before it is all said and done there are few who will answer the call (like Jonah) and of those who are willing they don't measure up. The ones who have braved the foolery and down right meanness of their congregations are worn down and battered both from enemy AND friendly fire. Then arrive the Pharisees dressed as Prophets wanting to rebuke and reprove and yet have not lifted a burden ONE in the church or their contribution is the sum total of their lip service. They are real good 'fault finders' but poor 'burden bearers'.This also is vanity and vexation of spirit. It eats away at what zeal for God is left until they are near to finding a corner and assuming the fetal position. Soon even the faithful pastors are ready to throw in the towell and the nay-sayers are pointing the finger, "See! I told you they would fall. I knew he wasn't legit in the first place." Such madness and idle talk. Such fighting against the work of the ministry. It's all vanity and vexation of the spirit. What happens? Its like the wolf that licked the frozen knife in the tundra- thinking he was getting a meal- when the meal was his own blood. The more the taste of blood the stronger and more focused the lapping- all the while plunging their own selves down into death. We should ask ourselves if the blood we taste from all this backbiting is not our own?God Bless,Robert

Hello Bro Robert,First, thank God for PASTORS, PASTORS of local Churches, whether small or large. Pastors who as you mention are on call 24/7. Pastors that when the sheep have jumped in a pit, will with humility help to restore that wayward sheep. Pastors who are there at birth, at graduation, at marriage and even then in death.what are your thougts here:So this leaves us with a small base to pull from. Now consider that there are stipulations to functioning in these roles. That narrows the field even more. Before it is all said and done there are few who will answer the call (like Jonah) and of those who are willing they don't measure up.Maybe so, and of those few that will answer the call, what wonderful fruit will be produced. There is nothing that can be compared to an individual who has been called and sent by God (not men). If it be true that eternal life itself is only entered through a strait and narrow way, and few there be that find it. How much truer then there will be a number smaller than “few” who will be ripe for the picking as Pastors? I am always uncomfortable with the idea of just filling positions, simply because a position is available. And some near have the attitude if we use the scriptural guidelines for leaders then we will have no one to choose from. What would be so terrible with waiting on God, believing that He will send the workers for the harvest. What is really accomplished when we carelessly make assignments to positions? The truth is, the rate of attrition is tremendous among pastors and they are aging in our circles. Why? Folk simply are not responding to the call. Why? Because they are told that going into the ministry will ruin their life- so they go on into other- more lucrative jobs. How would this fit I am curious with Bible Colleges and Seminaries moving away from degrees in Biblical studies for Pastorships and the growth of music, drama, etc… in their programs?tonys

We should ask ourselves if the blood we taste from all this backbiting is not our own?In some cases yes, but in most of the cases I would say no. The role of the "modern pastor" is un-biblical and actually in most cases does more to harm the sheep then to do them any good. Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness and our current view of a pastor is so corrupted at this point in the institutional church, I would have to say again that the answer to your question above is no and the quote below is deemed inconsequential. Sorry to disagree with you Rob, but I think if you are to look at things in the light of Scripture and without the blinders of modern institution church you may be able to see where I am coming from.We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs.

Let me ad just a little more to pastorfrin...What about a leader in the church yelling at you in a meeting in front of the whole church, and storm out yelling I resign...people leaving after the leader resigns...CHAOS breaks out all because you stood for the Word.What about a board telling you...your not going to get a raise this year...all because the chairman came into the church and didnt find the you in your office...but that chairman didnt know you were out visiting the people in your church that day.What about studying hours upon hours preparing for bible study and only 3 show up or none.What about finding out your chairman is a masonic lodge member in high degree.Do I want to be a pastor again in the American church? :-(

Here is something to think about."Where in the NT are we told that it is supposed to be a 'pastor' leading? From the understanding which I've been given, it was the apostles, prophets, and elders who were looked to for leadership. This certainly doesn't mean that none of these people didn't have pastoral giftings, but no where have I found Scriptural mandate for 'pastors' to be leading. Could it be that one of the instituional churches main problems is that the 'pastors' (many of whom are gifted to be teachers, rather than primarily shepherds) are trying to lead when they were never meant to? On an aside, I've been sent to many different heiresis', and I've been shown that most of these leaders who assume their positions are truly gifted teachers. This would explain the huge pride problem which is to be seen in leadership for knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Teachers are primarily gifted to exchange knowledge, and with all of the 'schooling' that most attain, it seems that this may explain things a bit." William Floyd

Hi Bro,How would this fit I am curious with Bible Colleges and Seminaries moving away from degrees in Biblical studies for Pastorships and the growth of music, drama, etc… in their programs?Certainly ministers cannot be manufactured. There is no trouble waiting on God. Men cannot call- God must call. I do not believe in 'filling' positions either. I can tell from the tremendous lack of laborers that there has to be an equally tremendous lack of folk finding their calling. This is a prime reason we were spread so thin for so many years. I just cannot believe that God has not called folk into the needy areas. Also you know I don't go in for all the 'program' nonsense. Manufactured ministers leads to manufactured converts. Error begets error. My emphasis was and is the new birth. Get folk genuinely born again and we will have genuine Christians from which God can raise up ministers. The problem is at the very foundation. My point in 'feeling' for the original post is that so many who are trying to do the work of the Lord are being compartmentalized with those who are in error. The sting is the same. I simply cannot go for that. God Bless,-Robert

CHAOS breaks out all because you stood for the Word.I say LET CHAOS break out.........God is doing a work when people rebell against the truth. Let that "work" manifest.Do I want to be a pastor again in the American church?If God truly called you to shepherd, no matter what obstacles may come your way, HE will allow you to go forth in HIS power and you, if called, will go. In Him, Cindy