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After reading this are you HIS "talmid"????

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brentw Mar 16, 2006

This a is powerful teaching of the true meaning of a disciple!! Be blessed:"The people of Galilee were the most religious Jews in the world in the time of Jesus. This is quite contrary to the common view that the Galileans were simple, uneducated peasants from an isolated area. This perspective is probably due to the comments made in the Bible, which appear to belittle people from this area. At the Shavuoth feast in the book of Acts for example, the people seem amazed that the Galileans were capable of speaking in other languages. But this is certainly a bias against Galileans by the people of Judea and other countries due to the very strong and passionate religious commitments of the people of Galilee. Besides, the Galileans had more interaction with the world living on the 'way of the sea' (the trade route, see Matt. 4:15) than the Jews of Jerusalem who were more isolated in the mountains. The Galilean people were actually more educated in the Bible and its application than most Jews. More famous Jewish teachers come from Galilee than anywhere else in the world. They were known for their great reverence for Scripture and the passionate desire to be faithful to it. This translated into vibrant religious communities, devoted to strong families, their country, whose synagogues echoed the debate and discussions about keeping the Torah. They resisted the pagan influences of Hellenism far more than did their Judean counterparts. When the great revolt against the pagan Romans and their collaborators (66-74 AD) finally occurred, it began among the Galileans.Jesus was born, grew up, and spent his ministry among people who knew Scripture by memory, who debated its application with enthusiasm, and who loved God with all their hearts, all their souls and all their might (Deut. 6:5). God prepared this environment carefully so that Jesus would have exactly the context he needed to present his message of Malchut Shemayim 'the kingdom of heaven' and his followers would understand and join his new movement. He fit his world perfectly. Understanding this helps to understand the great faith and courage of his followers who left Galilee and went to the whole world to bring the good news. Their courage, their message, the methods they used, and their complete devotion to God and his Word were born in the religious communities in the Galilee.Education in GalileeThe Mishnah(1) describes the educational process for a young Jewish boy in Jesus' time.At five years old [one is fit] for the Scripture, at ten years the Mishnah (oral Torah, interpretations) at thirteen for the fulfilling of the commandments, at fifteen the Talmud (making Rabbinic interpretations), at eighteen the bride-chamber, at twenty pursuing a vocation, at thirty for authority (able to teach others)This clearly describes the exceptional student, for very few would become teachers but indicates the centrality of Scripture in the education in Galilee. It is interesting to compare Jesus' life to this description. Though little is stated about his childhood we know that he "grew in wisdom" as a boy (Luke 2:52) and that he reached the 'fulfilling of the commandments' indicated by ones first Passover at age twelve (Luke 2:41). He then learned a trade (Matt. 13:55, Mark 6:3) and spent time with John the Baptist (Luke 3:21; John 3:22-26) and began his ministry at 'about thirty' (Luke 3:23). This parallels the Mishnah description quite closely. It certainly demands a closer look at the education process in Galilee.Schools were associated with the local synagogue in first century Galilee. Apparently each community would hire a teacher (respectfully called 'rabbi') for the school. While this teacher was responsible for the education of the village he had no special authority in the synagogue itself. Children began their study at age 4-5 in Beth Sefer (elementary school). Most scholars believe both boys and girls attended the class in the synagogue. The teaching focused primarily on the Torah, emphasizing both reading and writing Scripture. Large portions were memorized and it is likely that many students knew the entire Torah by memory by the time this level of education was finished. At this point most students (and certainly the girls) stayed at home to help with the family and in the case of boys to learn the family trade. It is at this point that a boy would participate in his first Passover in Jerusalem (a ceremony that probably forms the background of today's bar mitzvah in orthodox Jewish families today.) Jesus' excellent questions for the teachers in the temple at his first Passover indicate the study he had done.The best students continued their study (while learning a trade) in Beth Midrash (secondary school) also taught by a rabbi of the community. Here they (along with the adults in the town) studied the prophets and the writings (3) in addition to Torah and began to learn the interpretations of the Oral Torah (4) to learn how to make their own applications and interpretations much like a catechism class might in some Churches today. Memorization continued to be important because most people did not have their own copy of the Scripture so they either had to know it by heart or go to the synagogue to consult the village scroll. Memory was enhanced by reciting aloud, a practice still widely used in Middle Eastern education both Jewish and Muslim. Constant repetition was considered to be an essential element of learning (5).A few (very few) of the most outstanding Beth Midrash students sought permission to study with a famous rabbi often leaving home to travel with him for a lengthy period of time. These students were called talmidim (talmid, s.) in Hebrew, which is translated disciple. There is much more to a talmid than what we call student. A student wants to know what the teacher knows for the grade, to complete the class or the degree or even out of respect for the teacher. A talmid wants to like the teacher, that is to become what the teacher is. That meant that students were passionately devoted to their rabbi and noted everything he did or said. This meant the rabbi\\talmid relationship was a very intense and personal system of education. As the rabbi lived and taught his understanding of the Scripture his students (talmidim) listened and watched and imitated so as to become like him. Eventually they would become teachers passing on a lifestyle to their talmidim.As a result, Galilee was a place of intense study of Scripture. People were knowledgeable about its content and the various applications made by their tradition. They were determined to live by it and to pass their faith and knowledge and lifestyle on to their children. It was into this world that Jesus came as a child and eventually a rabbi.Jesus the RabbiThe term rabbi in the time of Jesus did not necessarily refer to a specific office or occupation. That would be true only after the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed (70 AD). Rather, it was a word meaning 'great one' or 'my master' which was applied to many kinds of people in everyday speech. It clearly was used as a term of respect for one's teacher as well even though the formal position of rabbi would come later. In one sense then, calling Jesus "Rabbi" is an anachronism. In another sense the use of this term for him by the people his day is a measure of their great respect for him as a person and as a teacher and not just a reference to the activity of teaching he was engaged in.Many people referred to Jesus as Rabbi. His disciples (Luke 7:40), lawyers (Matt. 22:35,36), ordinary people (Luke 12:13), the rich (Matt. 19:16), Pharisees (Luke 19:39), and Sadducees (Luke 20:27,28). Jesus fit the description of a first century rabbi especially one at the most advanced level, the one sought by talmidim.He traveled from place to place with his disciples depending on the hospitality of others (Luke 8:1-3) and often meeting in private homes (Luke 10:38-42)In travel, rabbis would visit local synagogues because of the discussion of Scripture that occurred regularly in these community centers (Matt. 4:23)Rabbis used similar methods of interpreting Scripture. For example the great teachers used a technique today called remez or hint, in which they used part of a Scripture passage in discussion assuming their audience's knowledge of the Bible would allow them to deduce for themselves fuller meaning. Apparently Jesus used this method often. When the children sang Hosanna to him in the Temple and the Sadducees demanded Jesus quiet them he responded with a quote from Psalm 8:2 "From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise." Their anger at Jesus is better understood when you realize that the next phrase in the Psalm adds the reason why children and infants would praise - because of the enemies of God who would be silenced (Ps. 8:2). In other words the chief priests realized Jesus was implying they were God's enemies.Another example is Jesus' comments to Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10). Jesus said "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (Luke 19:10) The background to this statement is probably Ezekiel 34. God, angry with the leaders of Israel for scattering and harming his flock (the people of Israel) states the he himself will become the shepherd and will seek the lost ones and deliver (save) them. Based on this the people of Jesus' day understood that the Messiah to come would 'seek and save' the lost. By using this phrase, knowing the people knew the Scripture, Jesus said several things. To the people he said 'I am the Messiah and God no less.' To the leaders (whose influence kept Zacchaeus out of the crowd) he said 'you have scattered and harmed God's flock.' To Zacchaeus he said 'you are one of God's lost sheep, he still loves you.'This technique indicated a brilliant understanding of Scripture and incredible teaching skills on Jesus part. It also demonstrates the background knowledge of Scripture the common people had.Rabbis used similar teaching techniques like the use of parables. More than 3,500 parables from first century rabbis still exist and Jesus' are among the very best. He uses similar themes (landowner, king, and farmer) as well. (Matt. 13:3,34)Jesus seems to be a type of rabbi believed to have mikhah or authority to make new interpretations. Most of the teachers were Torah teachers (teachers of the law) who could only teach accepted interpretations. Those with authority (today "ordination") could make new interpretations and pass legal judgments. Crowds were amazed because Jesus taught with authority (Hebrew mikhah, Greek exousia) not as their Torah teachers (Matt. 7:28,29). Jesus was questioned about his authority (Matt. 21:23-27). While this makes Jesus one of a small group of teachers he was not the only one with authority.Rabbis invited people to learn to keep the Torah. This was called taking 'the yoke of Torah' or 'the yoke of the kingdom of heaven'. Rabbi's with mikhah would have a new interpretation or yoke. Torah teachers would teach the accepted interpretations or yoke of their community. Jesus invitation to those who listened to many teachers and interpretations helps establish him as a Rabbi would present an interpretation that was easy and light (to understand not necessarily to do) (Matt. 13:11-30). As such, he was probably not speaking to unsaved people burdened with sin but people unsure of the many interpretations they heard in the dynamic religious debate in Galilee.Fulfilling the Torah was the task of a first century rabbi. The technical term for interpreting the Scripture so it would be obeyed correctly was 'fulfill.' To interpret Scripture incorrectly so it would not be obeyed as God intended was to 'destroy' the Torah. Jesus uses these terms to describe his task as well (Matt. 5:17-19). Contrary to what some think Jesus did not come to do away with God's Torah or Old Testament. He came to complete it and to show how to correctly keep it. One of the ways Jesus interpreted the Torah was to stress the importance of the right attitude of heart as well as the right action (Matt. 5:27,28).The Disciples as TalmidimThe decision to follow a rabbi as a talmid meant total commitment in the first century as it does today. Since a talmid was totally devoted to becoming like the rabbi he would have spent his entire time listening and observing the teacher to know how to understand the Scripture and how to put it into practice. Jesus describes his relationship to his disciples in exactly this way (Matt. 10:24,25; Luke 6:40) He chose them to be with him (Mark 3:13-19) so they could be like him (John 13:15).Most students sought out the rabbis they wished to follow. This happened to Jesus on occasion (Mark 5:19; Luke 9:57). There were a few exceptional rabbis who were famous for seeking out their own students. If a student wanted to study with a rabbi he would ask if he might"follow" the rabbi. The rabbi would consider the students potential to become like him and whether he would make the commitment necessary. It is likely most students were turned away. Some of course were invited to "follow me". This indicated the rabbi believed the potential talmid had the ability and commitment to become like him. It would be a remarkable affirmation of the confidence the teacher had in the student. In that light, consider whether the disciples of Jesus were talmidim as understood by the people of his time. They were to be "with" him Mark 3:13-19; to follow him Mark 1:16-20; to live by his teaching John 8:31; were to imitate his actions John 13:13-15; were to make everything else secondary to their learning from the rabbi Luke 14:26.This may explain Peter's walking on water (Matt. 14:22-33). When Jesus (the rabbi) walked on water, Peter (the talmid) wanted to be like him. Certainly Peter had not walked on water before nor could he have imagined being able to do it. However, if the teacher, who chose me because he believed I could be like him, can do it so must I. And he did! It was a miracle but he was just like the rabbi! And then...he doubted. Doubted what? Traditionally we have seen he doubted Jesus' power. Maybe, but Jesus was still standing on the water. I believe Peter doubted himself, or maybe better his capacity to be empowered by Jesus. Jesus response "why did you doubt?" (14:31) then means 'why did you doubt I could empower you to be like me?'That is a crucial message for the talmid of today. We must believe that Jesus calls us to be disciples because he knows he can so instruct, empower, and fill us with his Spirit that we can be like him (at least in our actions). We must believe in ourselves! Otherwise we will doubt that he can use us and as a result we will not be like him.Being like the rabbi is the major focus of the life of talmidim. They listen and question, they respond when questioned, they follow without knowing where the rabbi is taking them knowing that the rabbi has good reason for bringing them to the right place for his teaching to make the most sense. In the story recorded in Matthew 16, Jesus walked nearly thirty miles one way to be in Caesarea Philippi for a lesson that fit the location perfectly. Surely he talked with them along the way but the whole trip seems to have been geared for one lesson that takes less than ten minutes to give (Matt. 16:13-28).This means that the present day talmid (disciple) must be no less focused on the rabbi. We must be with him in his Word, we must follow him even if we are not sure of the final destination, we must live by his teaching (which means we must know those teachings well), and we must imitate him whenever we can. In other words everything becomes secondary in life to being like him. When they had observed and learned for a time they were sent out to begin to practice being like the teacher (Luke 9:1-6; 10:1-24). The amazement of the talmidim in discovering they could be like their teacher is delightful (10:17). It is very understandable to anyone who has seen the deep attachment of talmidim to his or her rabbi even today. It is most affirming when a student discovers that being like the teacher is possible. The teachers joy is no less as he discovers his students have learned well and are gifted and empowered by God to act as the rabbi does (Luke 10:21; see also John 17:16, 18).When the teacher believed that his talmidim were prepared to be like him he would commission them to become disciple makers. He was saying 'As far as is possible you are like me. Now go and seek others who will imitate you. Because you are like me, when they imitate you they will be like me.' This practice certainly lies behind Jesus great commission (Matt. 28:18-20). While in one sense no one can be like Jesus in his divine nature, or in his perfect human nature, when taught by the Rabbi, empowered and blessed by the Spirit of God, imitating Jesus becomes a possibility. The mission of the disciples was to seek others who would imitate them and therefore become like Jesus. That strategy, blessed by God's Spirit would bear amazing fruit especially in the Gentile world.It also helps to understand the teaching of Paul who sought to make disciples. He invited Herod Agrippa and the Roman governor to become like him (Acts 26:28,29). He taught the young churches to imitate him and others who were like Jesus (1 Cor. 4:15-16, 11:1; 1 Thess. 1:6-7, 2:14; 2 Thess. 3:7-9; 1 Tim. 4:12. The writer to the Hebrews had the same mission (Heb. 6:12, 13:7).This is one of the most significant concepts of the New Testament. Jesus, the divine Messiah, chose the rabbi\\talmid system. He taught like a rabbi in real life situations, using the most brilliant methods ever devised. He interpreted God's word and completed it. He demonstrated obedience to it. He chose disciples whom he would empower to become like him and led them around until they began to imitate him. Then (after the gift of the Holy Spirit) he sent them out to make disciples...to lead people to imitate them by obeying Jesus. And that strategy, by God's blessing would change the most pagan of cultures.That is our call too! Jesus calls us to be his talmidim. We must know God's Word and Jesus' interpretation of it. We must be passionate in our devotion to that word and Jesus example. As we are filled with his Spirit, we must be obsessed with being like him as far as is humanly possible. We must strive for relationships with others so they will observe us and seek to imitate our love and devotion to God and our Jesus-like lifestyle (1 Cor. 2:16, 11:1; Gal. 3:27). By God's grace, that strategy CAN change the most pagan of cultures.... our own!"*Moderator Edit:The original can be found here Rabbi and TalmidimAttempted to clean up the many '?' here that are also present in the original. At times they were substituted for comma's, backslash, quotes, and other punctuation. Certainly this is imperfectly done, my use of quotation marks are arbitray and well in need of their own cleanup. For more confusion on this try - Quotation mark ~ MB

sermonindex Mar 17, 2006

Brent, Hia buddy, before I could bring myself to answer this one, could ya tell me who wrote it ?Hey, you wanted to know about the concert I went to tonite ... I thought I'd answer here rather than hog Ron's thread. Hope that's alright.Oh Mannnn, I wish you and you all could'a been there.Wow, I haven't felt HIS Presence like that in a packed Church in I don't know when.Man, it was like being in Heaven. It was at a mega-baptist-Church in Charlotte and the tickets sold out weeks ago, but thankfully a Sister got me one for my B'day and what a B'day Gift from Above it was.It wasn't the whole Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir, but the Church's huge choir with the BTC's singers ... aboout 20 I think, though I didn't count ... but Jesus was there man. I couldn't believe it could be so fantastic, considering how there were people there from every type Church around, but that's what made it like Heaven and most of the folks from Brooklyn aren't like country folks, so when they closed their eyes with their arms raised while singing, Phewy, you could see, "He who is forgiven much, loves much" written all over their faces... such gratitude - visually apparent there. Phew ! And their harmony just brought you to the closest sound to Heaven there had to be.Not too many hand clappin' songs, though there were a few, but songs that were so reverent, I had to wipe my eyes through most of it. And I was grateful I got an aisle seat, cuz I had ROOM to worship. Wow. I advise anyone to catch their concerts if they come into your area. Pastor Cymbala gave a mini message of blind Bartemaus and his wife spoke earlier.She has such a sensitive spirit ... even though she's been at this with this choir for 30 years, I think she said.I'm still buzzing. How beautiful it will be when we all will be together, singing like that before HIM. I thought of you all while there and wished we were all together. I couldn't wait to get home to tell ya's.Anyhow. I gotta go soak the rest in and come back down a bit. :-D TTYL :-D

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philologos Mar 17, 2006

The people of Galilee were the most religious Jews in the world in the time of Jesus. I like much of this article but I'm not sure that I could agree with its opening sentence. The people of Galilee were certainly passionate about their faith; it was an area notorious for its unrest. Acts 5:37 But an regards 'orthodoxy' they were certainly 'looked down on' by the academics in Jerusalem. I suppose it depends on what the writer means by 'religious'. :-o

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brentw Mar 17, 2006

We're going to clean up this article...it has alot of ? marks in it that shouldnt be there.

sermonindex Mar 17, 2006

Brother Brent, I wasn't trying to be nosey when I asked who wrote it. It's just determines things in how I understand things better.Now you said "we", so I'm assuming you mean you and someone or that you'll edit someone else's piece ?Please don't mind me asking ... it's just I like to be sensitive to your feelings on extra Biblical writings and not offend at all, without realizing just who I may be taking a chance in praising or offending.Aw, what can I say man ... I'm just trying to be sensitive for once .... HA !!!Guess you'd have to have been there, to understand the 'joke' here. :-? Love you brother.Annie, with her keyboard in her mouth(usually).

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brentw Mar 17, 2006

Annie,This article is not my master piece at all....the writer is RAY VANDER LAAN. Dont feel bad ;-)

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crsschk Mar 17, 2006

Just to clarify... Had offered to clean up the "?" marks as they seem to be mostly misplaced "" marks, just to make the reading flow better. Hope to do this a bit later on. (That would be the "we" Brent is referring to)It would be interesting to find out where this came from though.

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crsschk Mar 17, 2006

Ah, you answered my question before I responded, thanks brother.

sermonindex Mar 17, 2006

That's why I'm a bit hesitant to say anything just yet. There's hints of HRM in it BUT I don't want to judge until I have more time to find this author and read it.I steer clear normally of anything incorporating the Talmud and the Mishnah. Sorry ... but give me time here. My eyes are still messed up from having a wonderful time last nite and I want to read this lengthy piece with the respect it's due because of who is posting it ... a good brother/member, who loves the Lord and ALL. I'll try to do it by tomorrow ... not that my commentary is worth a hill of beans, but it's just for discussion I suppose and maybe for all I know, just my curiosity acting up again. :-? Or maybe I just need something to keep me outta other troubles. Ha.Love y'all and thank you for clarifying for me Brent and putting me at ease. You too Mike - Thanks !

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crsschk Mar 18, 2006

Gave the original a little scrubbing in the punctuation department, with a note at the bottom via edit.There's hints of HRM in it BUT I don't want to judge until I have more time to find this author and read it.What is "HRM"?

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Christinyou Mar 19, 2006

2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. ((Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.)) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.God made us in His image and in the image of God He made us. I will never be like Christ. I was never created to be like Christ. God knew me before the foundation of the world. He knows every hair on my head. He gave me my personality, chose my parents, knows me intimately and wants me as His son. Being born again I am a new creature and I am in Christ. God wants me to live the life He created me to live. So How does God keep me just like He wants me to be and still be a son in His house with sin that is in me?Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.How are we like Christ? Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:Who teaches us this, and who is our TEACHER?John 14:26-29 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.He has come, I believe it and know He lives in me and I am becoming what God intended me to be, a special flower like no other except me and Christ in me as my new nature and my only life unto the Father.In Christ: Phillip

sermonindex Mar 19, 2006

God Bless ya Phillip.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hi Mike, HRM is the Hebrew Roots Movement.The author mentioned in this thread does appear to have a very large website that leans that way.The first words to look for would be where it may be said that Jesus or Paul used a "method" of "interpreting" the Torah.Jesus spoke as the Father gave utterance, not by any "methods" nor types of "interpreting".That site has John the Baptist as Jesus' "Rabbi".Whenever one attributes "methods of interpreting or methods of teaching" to Jesus or Paul, that come from the Rabbi's "methods", they are taking away the direct and divine inspiration from the words of both Jesus and Paul, causing both to depend on methods. Jesus did not need Rabbinic methods and Paul mentions what he had done with his teachings under them.That alone does not make a group necessarily HRM, but when they re-incorporate the Law/Torah observance into Christianity as we know it, such as not wearing cloths with mixed cloth, feast day observances being necessary and Sabbath, etc., that's when they are HRM.They say that we translate the Bible "the Greek way or Protestant way" and that the "Hebrew way" is through "experience and only way".Actually "experience" leads to "personal interpretations" and that is how the Talmud was written and why the rabbi's who contributed to the contents of the Talmud can contradict each other.The method of interpreting that incorporates "personal interpretation or experience" is called Midrash.Most who hold to Midrashic interpretation only, do not condone our way of interpreting Scripture by Literal, Grammatical, Historical means and say that we cannot understand the Bible without a 14 step equative interpretation that only a learned one can use to interpret "for you". So you sort of just have to go with whatever they say is being said in their Biblical commentaries.Many who have gotten into this form of interpretation have lost the ability to read the Word literally and the over spiritualizing and seeking typologies and symbology gets beyond what even they can bear."Midrash minimizes the authority of the wording of the text as communication, normal language. It places the focus on the reader and the personal struggle of the reader to reach an acceptable moral application of the text. While it is always governed by the wording of the text, it allows for the reader to project his or her inner struggle into the text. This allows for some very powerful and moving interpretations which, to the ordinary user of language, seem to have very little connection with the text. The great weakness of this method is that it always threatens to replace the text with an outpouring of personal reflection. At its best it requires the presence of mystical insight not given to all readers." http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/03-Torah-Halacha/section-25.html or http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/03-24.html Quote a definition from a teacher of ... "Midrash is like a quadratic equation or a very complex second order differential equation, a thirteen or fourteen step equation." The 14 "equations" Click on Chapter 2 ~http://www.geocities.com/midrashcreed/mi.htm Though some of these type sites won't come out and say the term 'Midrash' - whenever you see that word "method" of interpretation and see the words "Hebrew way or Jewish way", it is more than likely Midrashic interpretation.Some of these type sites will say in a mocking way "the Protestant way of interpretation" is no good ... only to a point ... and without Midrash, you'll never understand Revelation, just for one.Sad, because it's put a wedge between some Messianics and Gentile Christians.Anyhow, that looks like it in a nutshell.

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Christinyou Mar 19, 2006

Hi Annie,I went over the site and agree with you. It is a HRM site and takes away from the rabbinical priesthood Jesus fulfilled in Himself and takes us back into the Law and mixes Grace with it. Law destroys Grace and Grace cannot exist with Law. Grace exists in Love. We do His commandments out of Love because He Love us first when we were yet sinners. We are not Talmids, we are son's and daughters of God, and brothers' and sister in Christ, fellow heirs to the Kingdom of God on this earth which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" and already in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus. In Christ: Phillip

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brentw Mar 19, 2006

Phillip,Your not Jesus disciple?? :-(

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brentw Mar 19, 2006

That site has John the Baptist as Jesus' "Rabbi".The bible says Jesus came also to fulfill... Im not saying or disagreeing with you but Jesus did have a MOM & DAD too?? Rabbi too?? Lets study the site and not just skim over it and then judge it... I love studying greek & hebrew and the first century culture.We understand the Jews were law minded and not grace minded....but the old test was for our learning. This topic can get very deep quickly...."In The Dust of the Rabbi: Becoming a Disciple transports you to locations in Israel and Turkey to learn how the early church lived as disciples of Jesus. Come and follow teacher and historian Ray Vander Laan into the life of a talmid (disciple). Learn about how following a rabbi wasn't simply a hobby, it was a passion that was the driving force behind every action, every thought. And ask yourself, how passionate are you to follow Jesus?"I ordered the video and cant wait to watch it I'll let you know soon!

sermonindex Mar 20, 2006

Dear Brent, This is why I was so hesitant to answer right away.I saw it in the message immediately, but have been around this block so many times before in the past with my fellow Messianics, and those were very heart breaking times for me.Back many years ago, it was a really neat and wonderful celebration when one of our Jewish brothers would except Messiah, but as time has gone by, many have brought back those things that Paul had thrown out of his own education.Paul is even scorned on some Messianic sites.Brent I have Jewish blood, I am not anti-anything, but the Word tells me that the Gentile believer is as much a child of Abraham as those with Jewish or Israel blood.Long and hard did I have to look into these things because of the schisms that came within our Messianic circles.I've had to draw the line in the "Scriptural" sand and be heavily attacked by those I loved for that stand.There are some very good Messianic sites out there, that more fully understand the New Covenant and proper Biblical Hermeneutics, but there are others that have brought back the Babylonian Talmud and it's methods of interpreting which I mentioned above.These are the "mixed cloth" ministries, who have not done as Paul had to do when he considered his former education under Gamaliel as dung. Phil 3:2-8.This is very painful. We are having to rip apart the peoples that God would join as to one olive tree. The wild with the natural branches, but that is what Paul's ministry was all about.He was called as a Pharisee to preach the New Covenant to the Gentiles.You would think that with his education he would have been called to the Jews, as Peter the fisherman was, but no, he was called to the Gentiles to Protect them from the Judaisers and the "concision", because he of all was most pulled out from it, having been taken alone for 14 years with just the Lord to re-educate him and he did not falter under the pressure of the Jews as Peter had in Galatians 2.That is why he wrote half of our N.T. and suffered the most persecution and wrote books like Romans and Galatians and possibly Hebrews.His ministry was unimaginable because of what he knew from being a zealous Pharisee (Acts 23), and that is why even now, his name is being maligned amongst those who are returning to the law and the 'methods' of the rabbis.We now have the Holy Spirit as our Teacher.Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. And Paul told Timothy to "study" to show himself approved.Studying the Greek and Hebrew from Lexicons or dictionaries is one of the greatest things you can do, but to return to the education that Paul taught to turn from and to turn to, The Word and The Spirit of Truth, is how we are to operate now, In Spirit and In Truth and not in "methods" that actually did come out of the Babylonian captivity.The rabbis were then called Rav. And they brought forth what they said the word said, just as Catholic Priests did for hundreds of years.God ordained Priests in that time, not rabbis.We have the Holy Spirit now and more Study reference books and on-line, for the languages now then ever before in history.You could spend a day just exegeting one verse and still not get all of the truth out of it.You risk much to place yourself under a rabbi ... and that is what this man has made himself, whether you realize that or not.He may say that Yehoshua or the Ruach Kodesh - the Holy Spirit is "Rabbi", but he is a "teacher" and so he is the rabbi there, and that was seen in his articles.I looked over the site well brent. I would never come back to hurt you. I think you saw my hesitancy on page one.I trust you know that in Jesus, I would not try to rip myself or anyone else from the True Olive Tree.His Love to you.

sermonindex Mar 20, 2006

Brent, do you have the www.e-sword.net downloaded to your computer ?If you look around the site, you will see books by Alfred Edersheim. One is called The Temple - Its Ministry and Service and the other Very good one is The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah.The second one will touch on many of the things we talked about in the first post up top.There are other good ones there that you can download like, The Wars Of The Jews/The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem and also Antiquities Of The Jews By Flavius Josephus.Lots of good books for free download. And pretty much all the dictionaries etc. that would keep anyone busy for a long time :)

C
Christinyou Mar 20, 2006

Did you know that nobody is called a disciple after Acts? We are called, sanctified in Christ, Saints of God in Christ, The comforted, 1 Corinthians 1:2-3 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.2 Corinthians 1:3-4 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.We are called brethren, we are called servants,Galatians 1:6-10 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.We are adopted sons' of God with Christs' signature on the legal papers which stand before God written in The Blood of Christ. I would much rather be a birthed, in nature, by the Christ that is in us, son, than a disciple.To answer Your Question, No I am not a disciple.Most of all we are the faithful in Jesus Christ, We are the blessed in all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are called the holy and without blame before Him in Love, we are called adopted children by Jesus Christ to Himself by the good pleasure of His will. By His Grace we are called accepted in the Beloved.1 Thessalonians 1:3-4 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.The Elect of God.In Christ: Phillip

sermonindex Mar 20, 2006

One last thing if I may.The best teachers, teach you 'how to teach/study yourself' from the Word, with the best tools of Word Studies, proper hermeneutics, exegetical studies and expository skills, with John 16:13 before yours eyes always, and do not have you to sit at their feet.They will be the salt that makes you thirsty or hungry for The Word and to desire nothing but.When you are done with that method, you can defend what you believe with every Scripture ever written on any topic you are challenged on, and with the languages if they need them.Knowledge puffeth up but .....His Word is enough. Do not go beyond What is Written.I think that is a warning to each and every one of us from His Word.God Bless.

C
Christinyou Mar 20, 2006

Brent wrote:Quote: The bible says Jesus came also to fulfill... Im not saying or disagreeing with you but Jesus did have a MOM & DAD too?? Rabbi too?? His Dad was God the Father. His mom was Mary the maker of baby Jesus by the Seed of God the Father.HE did nothing without the Father. Jesus needed no Rabbi and either do we. Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [He], and [that] I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught Me, I speak these things.God taught Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit teaches us. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.In Christ: Phillip

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