HAS THE CHURCH BUILDING SYSTEM TAKEN THE PLACE OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY, ARE WE IN BABYLON?

Sometimes I wonder if im the only one out there at thinks this way. But then I remember the scripture that paul said in Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." Rom 11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. These are encouraging words.The whole building issue for the most part, esp in america today seems to really be a huge ego trip, man made kingdom, mans methods, formalistic, waste of money and a distraction. Because for the most part most buildings are sitting empty more than used, and if used, most buildings are much to big 4 the actual amount of people present. They are just empty waste of space that we pay for and maintain,4 what? So we can feel good, that we have a nice big "church" the church is never a building and never will be confined to one. It has turned into an idol for much i believe in the west, A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOD AND TRUE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. Thinking christianity is going to a building 1 day a week listening to a man speak. Still the bondage of the doctrine from RMC seeking a man as a mediator man made religion in exchange for a true relationship with God. The time and finances used in running a building are majoridly wasted this way. I believe the root is a mindset trickled down from the catholic church, and prb much deeper than that. It says that unless you have a building you do not have a church, and unless there is a clergy over it it isnt a church. I beleive this is the sick and twisted doctrine of the Nicolations that Jesus says He hates in the book of Revelation. And that ran through into the Roman Catholic Church and there horrid works of darkness that came from 1 man being in control, and lording over the people. And unfourtunatly much dont know also carried on through the reformation churches and right down into today. This system breeds; seperation between clergy and laity(unscriptual) which breeds Pride, control, formalism, compramising word of God,and the list goes on with those in authority, and those under auothority breeds laziness, undiscipled baby christians who fall into wanting there luke warm, uscriptual christianity loving there methods and rituals, and there ears to be tickled. In the new testament most meetings of believers all the way through into the epistles were in houses not man made buildings. Can God use buildings, yes, are they wrong in them selves no, Psa 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.Yet It never was the NT blue print of gathering together. If you logically think of of the advantages of gathering at home; relationships will flurish, disciplship will take place, true intamicy and fellowship much lacking in the common 1 hour church gathering in a building on sunday, not to mention the great time and money saved on not running the whole building, also not having a tax no. and having a building make home churches almost persecution proof. Discipleship should be going on that when the group number gets past 12 or so then a new home group can start, and so on and so on. Chuck Misler from Koinonia House has a really good teaching on this subject called the once and future church, all about going back to NT christianity, studying history, and cleaning up some things that weve been handed down, and seing the vision of the church that lies ahead. It costs money, but if you feel lead its a blessing.I believe that God desires to dwell in the hearts of men, not in a building. The whole building mentality is this culture, quick fix, 1 hour in out, back to our life, christianity becomes a conveince hobbie rather then a living relationship with the creator of the universe. It becomes and the way the system of it is set up breeds entertainment rather then reality. Keeps Christians in a box, and God, rather then, open and free to go into all the world. Relationship with GOd, the great commission of every believer to preach the good news- discipleship , true fellowship, and worship all these things get exchanged for a endless system of methods,programs, self entertainment all to designed around making you feel good, logic goes "you can be a christian and still have fun!" ie; potluck dinner movie night, entertainment park trips, golfing. Christianity seems to have become a hobby, a feel good christianity, humanistic. Christianity of today is so in the world you cannot tell the diff between the world and it. With homosexual pastors, tatoos, rampant lust, men and women clothing so sensual, fornication, divorce, witchcraft; ciggarets pharmakia, exceptance of harry potter, lord of the rings, santa clause, toothfairy, much music of world esp. Yoga, new age, homo pathic medicines, Astrology, Chinese Astrology-furtune cookies,rock music acceptance of movies that exalt evil, and call evil good and good evil, House hold idol- Tv-cable-entertainmentpaganism mixed with God (CHRISTMAS; (tree- LISTEN TO JEREMIAH 10:1 " Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. Jer 10:2 Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, Jer 10:3 for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. Jer 10:4 They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move." It was a pagan ritual then in Israels time, and Israel was partaking in it and God way rebuke them to come out or else they will be judged. And we are doing it now in christianity today mixing pagan rituals with Jesus, its sick. If God hated it then He hates it now, and does now desire to be worshiped with man made, demonic, sun god, pagan rituals. (yule log,santa claus-God of love of money) (EASTER(Ishtar-goddess of fertility)easter bunny-fertility-sex-goddess-americas cymble-playboys bunny-They are the sex goddess of today) (Tammuz's sun god worship- sacrfice of children)-dying eggs red. I am not against celebrating Jesus's birth, and ressurection, Im against mixing those memories with paganism, and im against because i believe to God its an Abomination, we serve a Holy God, that very word means set apart. We are not to mix the Holy with the profane. We are told to come out of Babylon not mix with it.Valintines day- rooted in lust. Example of effects-Kids are trained to date in preschoolAcceptance of Holloween is a big one. If u truly study the roots of these holidays, you find they are totally rooted in paganism, and now matter how much you package it to make it look harmless it still is founded on those roots. If root is evil, the plant will be evil, no matter if it is the most beutiful,tastefull looking plant. Just a little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump.We must all seriously consider our lives and what we do and why we do them,are they traditions of man,have we inherited lies like Gods people did from their fathers in Jeremiahs day; Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit. If they wordly we are told to get them out of our life.We must remember we live in a wicked world, a fallen world that is in utter rebbellion against their creator, no matter how pretty it looks this is the truth. I think we are so mixed up in it we are descensitized to how evil it truly is, and to the compramise and paganism and idolatry in much of our lives. I only see these things because of Gods mercy in opening my eyes, and i am to speak up against these harlotries. We must remember satan is the god of this world, the spirit that works in unbelievers. Everything of this world is not of the Father. I pray that those that read this would prayerfully and seriously consider the things ive spoken about, if any of these things argrivate you in hearing of them that could be a sign that it is bad, and satan does not want you to give up that thing, so he would get you agrivated and reject it as over the top crazy, etc. Search your hearts, allow the Holy Spirit time to speak if these things are true and any of these things apply to your life. Ask Him to show you anything that standing in your way of your relationship with Him. If you are a servant of Chrst your life is not your own, you are His, and our body is His, we must be willing to renounce anything and everything in ourlives that is contrary to Him. If we ignore them or stubbornly rebell they will blind us and draw us further and further away from Him. As i have renounced these things, i have grown closer and closer to the Lord, and my eyes are opened more and more. May Yahweh draw you all closer and closer to Him. In messiah yeshua Jesus Christ our Lord,joshuaP.SHere is some resources that talk in more detail on these subjects www.jeremiahfilms.com has videos on many of these subjects. Alo website and book called to long in the sun http://www.toolong.com/index.htmAnd this book called The Two Babylons--By Alexander Hislop

You did at least state this: Can God use buildings, yes, are they wrong in them selves no,Truth is, if God’s presence by the power of the Holy Spirit was evident in all these “buildings” I doubt there would really be a need for so many of these discussions. If once again it were to be noised abroad that Jesus was in the house, doubtful few would care much about the buildings.All the attention to buildings, large or small, multi-purpose or single purpose, pews or chairs, blue or green in actuality is somewhat of an aversion to larger issues, and in my opinion the lack of a born-again, new birth experience and preaching of such. I have nearly grown weary of the current buzz words making the rounds, “institutional” or perhaps “brick and mortar” etc….What say you..??tonys

Hey Tonys,I agree with you that "is somewhat of an aversion to larger issues, and in my opinion the lack of a born-again, new birth experience and preaching of such. " If the Christianity is not biblical and is false, then the leadership will be false, the preaching, and the converts. The things i brought up are only part of the problem the sins,lies, bondage, strongholds that form from the fruit of the another gospel-(the gospel of self, humanistic, do what thou wilt, ticket to heaven, name it and claim it, bloodless, cross less, anti self denial, anti total committed, feel good, unrepentent, no holyspirit gospel) which leads to a false christianity system, and am trying to expose the lies in hope that people will be awaken out of it. not sure i understand you here"I have nearly grown weary of the current buzz words making the rounds, “institutional” or perhaps “brick and mortar” etc…."joshua

Hi again Joshua,not sure i understand you here ]"I have nearly grown weary of the current buzz words making the rounds, “institutional” or perhaps “brick and mortar” etc….I am pleased you do not, Today I have listened twice to David Wilkerson's message "A Call to Anguish", two comments that He said I have thought much about are 1) so much meaningless rhetoric 2) an abundance of those who are good at diagnosing the problems. Yet so little anguish....All the problems you pointed out, have been addressed with Christ and Him crucified, the Cross of Calvary. We can bulldoze all the great Cathedrals across the land and instead meet in each others living rooms, and still miss the simplicity of the Gospel, again Christ and Him crucified.We can remove every Pastor from behind every Pulpit in every Church and still would not have addressed the problem. If you have not availed yourself to this message, do so soon!!God Bless, tonys

I was not meaning THe church structure as babylon, im talking about the church mixing with babylon.I'm pretty confident that i am aware of the huge lack of biblical preaching in the world especially in america. That is one one of the things i deff grieve over, but just as equally i grieve over all these things i have mentioned. Paul preached Christ crucified, yet he also wrote many epistles, filled with exhortation, direction guidance, against sin, err, heresy, wordliness, and the like. There is need for preaching the rememdy Christ crucified, yet, people must first be convinced of their disease before they will ever reason the trust in the rememdy. Some believe there saved and there not, there stuck in a system, formalism, im sounding the trumpet agaisnt the worldliness, to come out of babylon, and your false religion, back to the cross, back to christ back to true christianity. joshua

Krispy,One of the major problems with the Gospel as it has been preached is that it is only half of a gospel. We have preached that Jesus came to save us from our sins and from eternal punishment. That is true. Jesus did not come to only save us FROM but To.Jesus came to reconcile us to the Father. What benefit is there in being saved from danger into nothingness? I'm not talking about benefit to man but to the Father. The Father created man to be in fellowship, in intimacy. Jesus came to restore to the Father the family that He created but lost to sin.Our first and primary purpose is to know God. This is initimate experiential knowledge not for our sake but for His enjoyment. You are right that we should not be preaching a Gospel of benefits to man, even though it is these benefits (the goodness and kindness of God) which lead men to repentance. We are to put the focus on the Creator and not the creation.If we preach 'a ticket out ot hell' only, then we rob God of the intimacy that he desires with His children.Joshua,Let's preach come out of Babylon but let's tell them where they are being called to go. Let's not leave them wandering in the desert. That is not being rescued.Jeff

I agree that the first problem of America is that of a falso gospel that is easy-believism and humanism at root. That root, however, is clearly seen in the way that men worship pastors and live to go to Church on Sunday and think they have done their job. Furthermore, it is a gross sin to let the sick and dieing on the other side of the world continue on in their death while we live in the lap of luxury. Do you know why Sodom and Gomorrah was burnt to the ground? The homosexual lifestyle may have been what was the immediate cause listed in Genesis but if you read Ezekiel you will find that is what that they were living in abundance of idleness and multiplied riches while the poor were ignored. Can you think of a better summation of the modern "Church-goer." Most building-meetings are abundance of idleness, living in the lap of the luxury while the poor are neglected. Furthermore, if those few pastors who preach the truth would bring that truth to the homes of their people as the apostles and men like Charles Grandison Finney did and all the apostles did when Jesus sent them into the cities, then we would see the fruit. Neighborhood revival would be akin to the revival in the towns of many revials in American history. The neighborhood I live, if revived, would have more people in it than many of the towns I have read about in revival. I think sometimes we try to take to many people out for the gospel at once and forget to start with the dieing man next store. If all of us took it as our responsibility to do all within our capacity and cry out to God for revival in our neighborhood we would see revival or destruction. Those are the only two biblical responses to Christ.May God help us if we do not return ot Biblical ChristianityDaniel

Truth is, if God’s presence by the power of the Holy Spirit was evident in all these “buildings” I doubt there would really be a need for so many of these discussions. If once again it were to be noised abroad that Jesus was in the house, doubtful few would care much about the buildings.Fact is, in the New Testament, God's Presence does not dwell in a building. In the old Testament, God's Presence was in the Tebernacle, then the Temple both of which had as it's center the Holy of Holies where the Ark of the covenent was.IN the gospels Christ Himself was the dwelling place of God. He was the tabernacle of God (John 1 and also the temple "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up"). And in resurrection His body, as the temple of God has been enlarged to include all His believers as the Body of Christ, the houshold of God, the temple of God and the dwelling place of God.In the New Testament, the holy of holies is man's regenerated spirit and God dwells in the regenerated spirit of His redeemed people, the body of Christ.1 Cor. 3:9 says, "For we are God's fellow workers; You are God's cultivated Land, God's building..."Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built into a dwelling place of God in spirit."The concept of the 'church" being a building which people go to is as forign to the New Testament as statues of Mary, the sacrafice of the Mass, and the "holy priesthood".In fact there was a published study done to determine according to historical references and archeological findings when the first buildings were refered to as a "church" or even as an offical meeting place for Christian worship and if I recall correctly, there is non before the 3rd century AD.The early church had no such concept. They knew the church was the body of Christ and they were the church. They understood the revelation of the New Testament that the church is the body of Christ and the body of Christ is not a building made of stone or wood, but rather a living orginism of the Triune God, the dwelling place of God in spirit.Graftedbranch

As stated, the preoccupation with buildings from both the (in Church Buildings) and self-described (out of church Buildings) groups, is merely an aversion. Has little if anything to do with the building or lack of building believers choose to gather and worship in. I have been in service on the streets, in the parks, in the Nursing Homes, in the Mental Group Homes, in the Prisons, in the Cathedrals, and in the livng rooms. Has made no difference whatsoever, what does matter is:1 Corinthians 1:23-25 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.tonys

Good word brother Graftedbranch.And so we have Jesus words;Matt 18:20"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." ASVAs I think brother Daniel was saying when people sense the manifest presence of God there will be revival no matter where it is. Kind of reminds me of the testimonies of the revival at Asbury that were posted on this site.It makes me hunger for more getting back to the 'heart of worship' than talk of buildings and programs.Jeff

This I believe was posted here on SI back in January. It is thought-provoking, or perhaps just provoking you decide, but worth the read in my opinion. -tonysLEAVING BEHIND the "OUT-OF-CHURCH" REVOLUTION -by Andrew Strom. A year ago I made a public announcement that I was leaving the 'Prophetic' movement - a movement I had been a part of for over ten years. In hindsight I certainly believe that was the right decision, and one that had to be made. Sometimes a public "leaving behind" is important. However, I don't want to be known as the 'Leaving' guy, so I am kind-of embarrassed at having to make another similar statement only a year later. But God has been laying this on my heart for some time. Recently I have been growing more and more uncomfortable with another move that my name has been associated with for many years. -On our website we call it the "Out-of-church" movement, though recently George Barna has taken to calling it the "Revolution". -It is not exactly the same thing, but it overlaps greatly. And as someone who has been a known sympathiser and supporter of this movement, the time has come for me to state publicly that I am leaving it behind. I can no longer be seen to support something that is fundamentally anti-New Testament. Please do not think that I am referring to the 'House-church' movement here. That is not what I am referring to, though I do have small concerns with that movement also. But that is not it. For the last 20 years I have been involved with a network of people who have left their churches - often to go into a kind of individualistic "just me and God" type of mode. I cannot be party to such thinking any more. The problem I have seen is that a "wilderness" mentality develops - and many people simply live there forever. There is no true "Body Life" and no true "Leadership" - and I have noticed that because of this NOTHING REALLY HAPPENS. For year after year - NOTHING. Why is this? -Because 'Body' and 'Leadership' are utterly essential to basic New Testament Christianity actually HAPPENING. Without these two things we simply do not get anywhere. I mean - isn't that the pattern that we see right through the Book of Acts? For some people the 'Out-of-church' Revolution is "new". But for me it is very old, and after 20 years observation there is one simple thing I can tell you: IT DOES NOT WORK. It does not transition into real New Testament 'Body Life'. It does not lead to Revival. It does not transform the church. It "scatters" instead of gathering, and leads to what I call "amorphous blob" Christianity. -In other words, the Body of Christ becomes an unfocused mass of individualists without form or direction - "each man doing what is right in his own eyes." I don't know if we can find much more of an opposite to true Body Life than that. A lot of these people say that if we are going to have leaders, then they must be real "servants". Amen! -I fully agree. But the New Testament also states that we need 'Fathers' in the faith (-who bring correction, discipline and teaching) and also true 'shepherds'. In my experience, those who want the 'servants' - without the 'fathers' or 'shepherds' - are often people who have a deep stronghold of 'REBELLION' in their hearts - which they are trying to cover up with high-sounding talk. (-Just as I myself used to do). And that is what this movement is full of: High-sounding talk. You see it in Barna's book "Revolution". You hear it everywhere you go in the 'Out-of-church' movement. Vast claims are being made for those who will simply "come out" - and actually "BE the church without having to GO to church", etc. One would think that "coming out" was the solution to all that ails us. But as I have seen for 20 years now, nothing could be further from the truth. The facts are plain and simple: If your thinking and behaviour are basically "anti-Body" and "anti-Leader", then don't expect to get anywhere. And don't expect the Body of Christ to get anywhere either. We are not designed to be an "amorphous blob". We are designed to be a unified army with leaders and direction and teamwork - taking the kingdom of darkness using "combined force". United together we are very powerful - for God designed us to be a 'Body'. Split apart into "individualists", we are weak and ineffective. And in the Book of Acts, they united under 'LEADERS'. It was 'LEADERS' that were the glue that God used to keep the whole thing together. -This has simply always been His way. Are you someone who has trouble with the concept of uniting under leaders? -In that case, do not expect to take part in the coming move of God. -Your attitude is totally anti-New Testament. But do I have sympathy for people who feel like 'outcasts' in the church? Do I have sympathy for those who search and search, yet cannot seem to find a church that is biblically sound? -Certainly. I get people writing to me all the time saying they have been around every church in their area, and all there seems to be are 'dead' traditional churches or hype-ridden, over-the-top 'Charismania' churches (and yes, I am Spirit-filled myself, but have to admit that the Charismatic movement today is in an awful mess). That is a huge problem - for where do these people go? The fact is, what Barna is popularizing as a new "Revolution" in many cases is something a lot less. Often it is simply the church getting so bad that many of its best people are being forced out - never to return. Does that sound like a great "Revolution" to you? The real problem, as Barna himself has stated many times, is that there is a LEADERSHIP CRISIS in the Western church. It is simply impossible to believe that things would have gotten so bad if this were not the case. So what is the answer? -It is certainly not to abandon the concepts of 'Body' and 'Leadership' altogether. That is not an option at all. But there has got to be a "new" way for God to bring order to His backslidden church. I have said many times that what is coming in the West is not just a Revival but also a "Great Reformation". God cannot live with a lukewarm church. He is about to bring great 'change'. And during a Reformation, God always deals with these two issues of 'Body' and 'Leaders'. - He raises up something NEW. So what am I saying here? -Simply that "coming out" is not the answer. Rather, the issue is whether you will "enter in" to the new thing that God wants to do. -That is always the issue. And I tell you, if you have a problem with 'Body' or 'Leaders' then your chances of entering in are almost non-existant. -We simply cannot come into New Testament Christianity without these two things. I don't know about you, but I have a great sense of expectancy about this year (2006) and coming years. I truly believe we may be about to see some breakthroughs in the "new thing" that God is wanting to establish. But one thing is for sure:- If we are unwilling to either LEAD or be LED, then I believe we can virtually forget about taking part. -That is how important Leadership is, in a new move of God. -It is UTTERLY VITAL. Friends, can you grasp this crucial fact:- The season has changed and it is time to "ENTER IN" not 'come out'. God wants to do a 'new thing', and the real question is whether your heart is capable of entering in and being part of it. Do not be like the children of Israel who wandered and died in the desert because they failed to enter their Promised Land. -Be one who 'enters in'. God bless you, my friends.Kindest regards in Christ,Andrew Strom

Tony thanks for sharing. The article was right on. Lead or be led! But to lead is to serve not rule. To blaze the trail, be the first to engage the enemy, be the first to repent -change direction, is to lead by serving. Would that we all could be servant leaders as Jesus said;Mark 10:44-4544 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. KJVWhen we lead by serving inside a building or in a field people will follow.Jeff

For the last 20 years I have been involved with a network of people who have left their churches - often to go into a kind of individualistic "just me and God" type of mode. I can't see how a turn to the biblical revelation of the Church which is the body of Christ is any way a "forsakeing if the church"When we see in the Word of God the reality of the body of Christ, we do not forsake the church, we rather establish it. We cease to adhere to a man made religion of outward ritual and performance, and turn to Christ who is our indwelling Life to be in us the reality of all God is.We begin to meet with believers as the church in our locality and meet as the body of Christ, the expression of the Triune God in our locality. There is nothing of "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, but rather the gathering together as the body of Christ, the dwelling place of God in spirit.GraftedbranchGraftedbranch

I think one really important question is this; if you take away the building, are you a family? If you take away the building, the meetings, the 'ministries', the systems the institutions, is there still a family that will continue to meet together, encourage, preach, teach, help, give and most of all truly love (agape, not philia) one another? Jesus didnt start an institution, He started a family, a family for all of those who find God to be their Father, Brother, Spouse, and friend. A hundred mothers, brothers and sisters."Whoever hears the word of God and does it, the same is my mother and brother"If this is not the case, you are not in a church at all. This is the nature of babylon. It may happen in a building, it may happen in a house, it may happen in a christian communal society. All of these have the potential to be false, and just religious. They have the potential to be just a bunch of people who know the right words can say the right things and can hold to (or at the very least, pretend to hold to) the right standards. Just a bunch of people with a bunch of standards that they agree on (whether they be standards of doctrine, or standards of holiness... it is all the same if there is no LIFE!) But if you have fellowship with brothers and sisters who love God with all of their heart, walk in the light that He gives them, are filled with His Life, honest about who they are and where they are at, this is your church. If you have fellowship with brothers and sisters who encourage, help, keep you accountable and show you light; brothers and sisters who listen to you, receive light and accountability from you, and most of all love you and you them, this is your church. One of my favorite quotes about the church is a question "Can you attend a bride? Does someone attend a bride?". Ofcourse not! The church is His bride, we live and walk and love together as that. As His children, as His bride, as His friends and as His brothers and sisters. These are articles that have encouraged me in this area:Do I have to go to church?Community? House Church? NO NO NO!Joe

TonyS wrote:All the attention to buildings, large or small, multi-purpose or single purpose, pews or chairs, blue or green in actuality is somewhat of an aversion to larger issues, and in my opinion the lack of a born-again, new birth experience and preaching of such. In marketing there is a phrase often used, "There is no such thing as bad press." I agree, there is undue emphasis on buildings etc..., but undue emphasis, whether negative if or possitive, is undue, none the less. Do these issues really distract from the new birth? There are "house churches" and "nomadic christians" out there who are trusting in their "sinner's prayers" to save them, even as we speak.Don't forget that the people who have delivered the message of the counterfeigt conversion are, for the most, "institutional chuirch" members and pastors. Finney, Comfort, Reidhead, Tozer, Wilkerson, to name but a few, are and were all ordained clergy. Reidhead in Ten Shekel's and a Shirt spoke of "all these things" being "usefull", saying the he was "not being sarcastic, at all". For the most part, we are chasing shadows, when we should be retracing our steps to where it all went wrong (on this note, may I recommend "The Betrayal Of The Ages", a documentary on the de-emphasis of the 'New Birth').You are correct that the "Church Building Structure" is an addition to the NT pattern, but this sort of thing was fortold by Christ and the apostles, throughout the NT. Paul in 2 Timothy spells out that "in the last days, perilous times shall come, for men will be lovers of their own selves...". It would seem that the last days have been going on for quite some time now. We should be beholding these "ministerial monoliths" as a sign that everything is going according to plan, and get on with the job.If the present church system is the "Whore of Babylon" then perhaps she is also the "mother of the man child" (which in this senario would be the true church, embryonic in the harlot's belly). If this is true, then we should stay in the "womb" until the "gestation period" is complete, which will occur when it's time for the whore to "push" us out of her birth canal.Just some thoughts. Their not really my own. I got them from Paris Reidhead's The Hidden Things of God- Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3. This series is really good for considering the topic at hand. In typical Reidhead fashion, he goes through the history of the emergance of church buildings, contrasting the "Visible Chruch" with the "True Chruch" hidden within it's ranks.

JFEdgar wrote:I think one really important question is this; if you take away the building, are you a family? If you take away the building, the meetings, the 'ministries', the systems the institutions, is there still a family that will continue to meet together, encourage, preach, teach, help, give and most of all truly love (agape, not philia) one another? Jesus didnt start an institution, He started a family, a family for all of those who find God to be their Father, Brother, Spouse, and friend. I think that this cuts to the heart of the issue. When Art Katz was in Melbourne, Australia, at a conference hosted by "house church" christians, he told a story of a couple that came to him after leaving their church which, according to them, was bound up in error. They thought that they'd get a simpathetic ear from Art, but he told them that the problem was that they thought that they were too good for their church. The couple went back and publically repented of their arrogance, and the whole church broke into repentance. The funny thing was the conversations after the meeting, with all these people saying, "It's all good for Art to say that we need to go back. He's out of the church system. When he goes back, himself, I'll listen to him on the matter."The reailty is that the bulk of institutional churches I have been involved in wouldn't know fellowship if they fell over it. To quote Leonard Ravenhill, "Laugh and the church laughs with you. Weep and you cry alone." Interestingly often times it is the youth of a church that tend to meet together and look out for each other. then something happens and the learn to be like the adults, when they get to a certian age and get married and such, and shed such "idealistic notions".The funny thing is that most "out of churchers" don't realise that they are feeding the problem by allowing a condition to get in between them and showing "agape" love to their fellow Christians. There is a limit to their love, a stage at which it is okay to give up.However, in spite of this, I have seen love in institutional churches, and I've seen it in house churches. Either way, the Lord will have a remnant. Just don't try to label it. That's the Lord's job.

I just want to emphasize for everyone that i do not mean specifically by the heading"ARE WE IN BABYLON" that is the church building us being in babylon, that s not what i meant. by saying are we in babylon i was refering to are we in mixture with the world, as i emphasized some areas i had.joshua

LEAVING BEHIND the "OUT-OF-CHURCH" REVOLUTION -by Andrew Strom. The difficulty with an 'OUT-OF-CHURCH" movement is that it's very title suggest a lack of revelation conserning the reality of the church. One who speaks of an "OUT-OF-Church' movement regards the traditional system to be "the church" and therefore those who leave this system are in this view "out of church". To say there is a movement of those who leave the church is to fail to see what the church is. To operate outside the church is to operate independantly. To have our own thing. To be isolated. WE cannot leave the church, but we can live independantly of the church and function as though we are not members of the church. But if one defines the "church" as the traditional religious system, then one can leave it. But the system is not the church.If one "is the church" and a member of the body of Christ, how can one leave it?. If we are the church, then wherever we meet and whatever we do, the church does.If we build a big building and meet there week to week, we are the church. If we meet in homes from house to house, we are the church. The reality of the church is not in a place or a building, but rather in the members of the body of Christ who meet in any location as the church.Believers cannot leave the church. We are born into it by the Divine Birth. WE are living members of Christ. But believers can leave a fallen and degraded and man made religious system which has nothing to do with the New Testament Church. Amen to those who leave the "religious system" but not to those who seek to live as an "independant Christian. Let the dead bury the dead and the dead religious system bury it's own. But let those who have the revelation to see the reality of the body of Christ be the church and meet as the church and God will have what He is after.Exo. 25:31 says "And you shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The lampstand with its base and its shaft shall be made of beaten work..."Revelation 1:12 says: "And I turned to see the voice that spoke to me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands."The churches are lampstands made of gold. The gold signifies the Divine nature of God. And the lampstand is made by beating the gold tegether to form one lampstand.To be a genuine church, there is needed much gold of the Divine Nature. We need more of God constituted into our being. And we need to be beaten together with others to form the lampstand. If we are an isolated believer doing our own thing , having our "own ministry", we may be spiritual. We may have gold, but we are not the lampstand. We are not God's building. IT is not about meeting in a "church building" or meeting in homes. It is about having the gold worked into us, and being beaten together with the other members of the body of Christ to be a golden lampstand. Only then does God have what He is after.Meeting in homes does not make one the church any more than meeting in a building. A "house church" is no more biblical than a 'steepled building church". The focus is wrong and not according to the revelation of the Bible. The focus of the Bible is on the living members of Christ who are the orginism of the Triune God. In the New Testament, they met from house to house and also at Soloman's pourch in the Temple. The reality of the church is that they met. The Church meets. One does not go to church, either a "house church" or a traditional church. The Church meets as the living expression of Christ who indwells each member and this alone constitutes the church.Rev. 3:18 "I counsel you to buy from Me Gold refined by fire that you may be rich, and white garments that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested, and eyesalve to anoint your eyes that you may see..."Graftedbranch