Gate Beautiful... Salvation opportunity missed?

The beggar stood up headed into the temple and was praising God. He sounds more fired up than most of the believers today. Is it possible he received salvation right after he was healed?Murray

Dorcas,You don't have to be born again to praise God which I know is what you were getting at. All I am saying is that after receiving his healing he got up went to church with Peter and John. I don't think the two of them would have let the beggar go away without hearing that Jesus died for his sins(the beggar's) and that he has to be born again. I don't know for sure, but those would be two guys I would have liked to gone to church with.Murray

Dorcas,I long to be able to use Peter's strategy (i.e. miraculous healing) but as is stands all I have are the words to say (gospel message).Murray

Increase My Faith!

Dorcas,The last sentence in Acts 2 is "And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." Then they heal the beggar in Acts 3:6 and then in verse 26 they say "When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways." The beggar was with Peter and John to hear all this and in verse 19 they said "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord"In Chapter 4:4 it says "But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand."I believe that beggar was one who believed, therefore a salvation opportunity was not missed.Murray

Oh boy, when I read about the rich young ruler-- it sure seems like Jesus missed a salvation opportunity! *wink wink*

Dorcas,There was no space in time between 'Silver and gold I have none' and receiving his healing. Peter said it all in one sentence. So he didn't have time to become 'uninterested' as you put it. If you reread Chapter 3 in it's entirety I believe you can conclude the beggar also believed on Jesus. The beggar was holding on to Peter and John (Acts 3:11) when they addressed the crowds about repenting and faith in Jesus.John 9:3 But this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his lifeMurray

Linn,I think that Murray caught some of what you were fishing for. Peter and John had walked with Jesus and had learned a very important concept. Miracles are not the goal; they are not the focal point. After the lame man was healed they used the opportunity (didn't miss it) to preach Jesus to the crowd that had gathered in the temple. Murray is right in deducting that the lame man was most likely among those who believed the message.Many of the miracles that Jesus performed were not upon 'believers' that is 'saved' people. Jesus had compassion upon the multitudes but His primary purpose was not meeting peoples needs, whether healing, food, clothing, finances, or any other temporal thing, for their comfort. The primary objective in fulfilling a physical need for the 'lost' is to open their hearts to recieve the message that will change their eternity.I believe that one of the reasons that we do not see 'signs' in America is because we have so many natural alternatives. Why do we have to believe for God to multiply the loaves and fishes when we have a credit card and a grocercy store 2 minutes away? We have been conditioned to trust in natural resources because they are so readily available.These natural resources may be used often for the same purpose as the miracles. A hungry man doesn't much care where the food came from; he is satisified that his belly is full. When we meet a physical need of an individual it demonstrates the love and goodness of God and softens their heart to hear the Gospel. It is the goodness and kindness of God that leads men to repentance.There is a danger of elevating miracles, signs and wonders to a place of idolatry. Jesus rebuked the religious establishment of His day for 'seeking a sign.' They wanted proof. There is no faith based on proof. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who having not seen believe.On another thread TS spoke of denominations disintegrating and the Body becoming 'one' if a real man of God, who demonstrated Matt. 10 ministry came on the scene. I wish that were true but the fact is the religious community, in large, did not repent at the miracles of Jesus.The unity of the Body that we all desire, will not come through programs, miracles, consensus of doctrine, or any human effort. The only way we will ever see unity is if we join Jesus in prayer. Not for revival, not for miracles but prayer to the Father that He would make us one.This 'oneness' of the brethren will take place when the Father so transforms us individually that we lose our agenda, our desires, our passions and our will, and His thoughts and mind fill us. Then when I have the mind of Christ and you have the mind of Christ, we will be of one mind and one heart. It is at this point that the world will know that the Father has sent His only Son Jesus to save the world.Jesus did not commmand us to be one. He prayed to the Father and asked the Father to make us one. It is time that we stop trying to do what only the Father can do and join Jesus in asking the Father to do it.I believe that God is not confirming our gospel with signs and wonders like in Acts 16:20 because we are preaching only half the Gospel. We are robbing God. When we preach a gospel of salvation from hell but do not preach that Jesus died to reconcile the sinner to the Father, then we rob God of the intimacy with His children that He paid so dearly to have. When we begin to preach in such a way that men and women hear of God's desire to come and dwell inside of them, to speak to them, to fellowship with them, to be one with them, then I believe that we will see the power of God manifested.One of the key points that God spoke to me when I listened to The Revival Hymn was that our motive for preaching to the lost can not be the concern of the human condition but to facilitate the new-birth of children into God's family because He wants a BIG family. Fulfilling God's desire has to be our motive. When we are focused on God's desire to have more children rather than simply rescuing people from perishing in hell then I believe God will confirm our preaching.God bless you as you seek His face and heart.Jeff

Hi JeffThis is an interesting topic started by Dorcas. It seems that we have a difference of opinion as to the value or credibility of healing in particular and signs and wonders in general. You put this on your last reply:quote-"There is a danger of elevating miracles, signs and wonders to a place of idolatry. Jesus rebuked the religious establishment of His day for 'seeking a sign.' They wanted proof. There is no faith based on proof. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who having not seen believe."To this I would reply that you have to have signs and wonders in order to elevate them to any level to say nothing of an looking at them as an idol (anything raised above the Glory/worship only God deserves) Though I hear of miracles happening in third world countries...I cannot validate them or worship them either one. I am extremely touched by Brother Yuns story of the underground church and the Miracles signs and wonder that accompanied his involvement with the spreading of the gospel. It is not for the religious system as you so aptly noted for which all the benefits of Gods power manifested through miracles etc would be most impactful to. It is for the backing up of the Word spoken in power and truth of the Holy Ghost for the unbelievers to become saved. To an unbeliever we christians sound all the same...just different rules. My comment on not having another preacher speaks to this...words are cheap and overused, abused. In this day and age when there is so much information I believe that the value of it has been diminished...you know the supply in demand factor. Because of this non-believers put no stock in what is said...from one side of the body to the next it seems the only people we are talking to is our selves....we have become irelevant to most of the world...they have decided to take what they want to accept and throw out what they don't...this is why we have an "80 odd %" of americans claiming to be christian. Your quote again;"On another thread TS spoke of denominations disintegrating and the Body becoming 'one' if a real man of God, who demonstrated Matt. 10 ministry came on the scene. I wish that were true but the fact is the religious community, in large, did not repent at the miracles of Jesus.The unity of the Body that we all desire, will not come through programs, miracles, consensus of doctrine, or any human effort. The only way we will ever see unity is if we join Jesus in prayer. Not for revival, not for miracles but prayer to the Father that He would make us one."dorcas already used this verse and it cannot be ignored...her quote/verse-Mark 16:17, 18"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (look at Matthew 10 for more of the same...we are commanded/charged to go heal, raise the dead, cast out demons etc...just because we cannot at this point does not mean we should ignore the issue...we should make this the priority...the trouble is the cost is too high)You could paraphrase this as: if you are one who believes then it may be assumed you will open your mouth and speak of the gospel...THEN because of this belief the signs and wonders will follow. I am still trying to figure out what is missing on our part that keeps this from happening in America and more importantly for me personally. I know the issue does not lie with the God but with me and us at large. I would like to say that it is not "Gods time" for these miracles to be unfolded as in the days of the disciples but there is nothing scriptural to say they ever should have stopped. And it is further verified like you referenced...we have not got to the point of desperation to actually need miracles...(gocery store credit card you mentioned). I am fearful that if ever there was a rich young ruler in need of making the choice of giving it up to follow or walk away in sorrow because we cannot it is the Amercican Christian. Maybe it will be when the need arises for miracles signs and wonders they will come...the need will be when we are at the end or ourselves as in the instances in other countries where it happens. You referenced Jesus prayer to the Father to make us "one". If His prayer did not "work" then what hope have we? On the other hand it was not long after...the cross, the resurection, the falling of Holy Ghost and the ensuing miracles signs and wonders which contributed to the persecution of Christians which ultimately led to the unity I speak about and wait for. Quote--"This 'oneness' of the brethren will take place when the Father so transforms us individually that we lose our agenda, our desires, our passions and our will, and His thoughts and mind fill us. Then when I have the mind of Christ and you have the mind of Christ, we will be of one mind and one heart. It is at this point that the world will know that the Father has sent His only Son Jesus to save the world. Well said and a Hearty Amen...i think we differ a little on what will transpire in order for us to lose our agenda's etc...we will not give it up willingly. It will come from God loving us so much that His judgment will fall making us lose our agendas etc. Many will be offended at God (though they will hold to their "false religion") and not choose to repent and draw close to their only hope. Others in my opinion will start walking in the miracles signs and wonders which will bring many to the true God and Body of Christ.Quote:"I believe that God is not confirming our gospel with signs and wonders like in Acts 16:20 because we are preaching only half the Gospel. We are robbing God. When we preach a gospel of salvation from hell but do not preach that Jesus died to reconcile the sinner to the Father, then we rob God of the intimacy with His children that He paid so dearly to have. When we begin to preach in such a way that men and women hear of God's desire to come and dwell inside of them, to speak to them, to fellowship with them, to be one with them, then I believe that we will see the power of God manifested."We are indeed missing at least "half the Gospel"...but the part I think we are missing in America is Christ as King. How can we say he is our savior when we do not give our allegiance to the King? Psalms 2 is a great study for figuring out how God looks at humans and how we relate/treat the God of All. The King is Holy if we could but grasp what this means we would change or be changed.Psalm 2 1 Why do the nations conspire [a] and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One. [b] 3 "Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters." 4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5 Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6 "I have installed my King [c] on Zion, my holy hill." 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son [d] ; today I have become your Father. [e] 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will rule them with an iron scepter [f] ; you will dash them to pieces like pottery." 10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.Blessings.

Dear TS,I don't disagree with you as much as you might think. I believe that much tribulation and persecution is needed to get the church where it needs to be. And that may be the very answer to Jesus prayer.My point of elevating signs and wonders to a place of idolatry is simply that although we all want to see the lost come to Christ that the Father may have many children, it is human nature to become preoccupied with the process. Signs and wonders are for today, I believe that, yet they are not the goal or thing that we need to seek. When we seek anything other than God himself, if anything preoccupies our time, thoughts, affections etc. such that we spend less time seeking His face and His will then that thing, no matter how good, it becomes an idol. I believe that was the point in the thread Revival Idolatry. Revival is not bad or wrong but when we focus our attention upon how to have revival or miracles instead of on God himself then we are missing it.I have been troubled in my own life concerning the fulfillment of the verses quoted. If these signs follow those who believe, then if they are not following me, do I not believe? I agree with you that the problem is not with God. I like what Linn said about cost. Three years ago I was crying out to God because of these concerns in my own life, asking God to use me more. His response to me was, "How much do you want it?" I replied, "I'll do anything!" His response was, "It will cost you your life."I have to admit that the process of my death and His manifestation is not complete, but I am seeing less of me and more of Him. I am seeing Him do things I have never seen before and everyday He shows me what of 'my life' has to be laid down that His life may arise.I encourage you to keep on keeping on and share with us what God shows you because 'we ain't there yet!'Love in Christ,Jeff

Dorcas,I agree with you, there is no way I can say with 100% certainty that the beggar received salvation. Acts was written after the gospels and it does not mention the mass falling away that happened in John 6:60 happening again. "And the Lord added many to their number who were being saved; it doesn't mention that most backslid and returned to their worldy ways does it? I need clarification on what you mean by "presenting the gospel differently"?I'll talk more on my next post about the Church lacking in power and compassion.Murray

No matter how likely it is that he was, we have no proof.And this would be completely in keeping with the many other people whom Jesus healed during Him ministry, who almost without exception left Him when He spoke of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, in John 6... until He finally asked the twelve, in v 67, if they too, wished to leave Him. All those people, many of whom could be following only because they had been healed, stopped following.I would be inclined to agree. That is in keeping with the spirit of scripture. Think of the parable of the seed and the sower. Clearly from that we learn that one's original intention (ie, to be a follower of Christ), or one's initial blessings (like healings) is not an indication of ultimate salvation. Think of the seeds that grew up quickly and enjoyed the benefits for a short time - but when trials and temptations came, they fell away. Jesus did many miracles for the non-saved. And that still happens. I have heard of miracles happening to unbelievers - and those miracles then eventually led to serious consideration of Christ, which then later on led to serious commitment. Jesus taught us to count the cost. And that takes time. I don't think that he hands out salvation packages without the sinner going through their own process of willing surrender. And only Christ knows the heart. The Spririt blows where it wills, and we can't see it. The question itself would be a concern to evangelicals, because evangelicals base salvation primarliy on initial experience rather than the long-run proof. Diane

Brother Jeff, I believe your right and if we sat and talked am sure we have much more to agree on than dis-agree with. What you said with the following quote really speaks to me:quote:-Three years ago I was crying out to God because of these concerns in my own life, asking God to use me more. His response to me was, "How much do you want it?" I replied, "I'll do anything!" His response was, "It will cost you your life."This has been my cry as well...what does it take, how much do I need to turn my back on the world to be used of you Lord? It seems that in the past year I have made great efforts at trying to find this place. My problem is it seems that I've failed again and will never be able to untangle myself enough from this world to make a difference...to be a Paul or a Peter. Maybe my expectations are too high. Maybe I have backed off when I needed to stay the course no matter what it looks like. The big question this thread brings up is What do you have to do differently and why does it seems so hard to find the answer...I feel like this Psalmist must have felt when he wrote this:Psalm 44:23Wake up, Lord! Why are you sleeping?Get up! Don't reject us forever.Why do you hide from us?Have you forgotten our pain and trouble.We have been pushed down into the dirt,we are flat on the ground.Get up and help us.Because of your love save us.(there troubles of the day seemed to be more physical...my problem of this day is the spiritual trouble that seem to abound throughout, I think they are fair verses to apply to our or at least my frustrations)If this was not written in the Bible I would be afraid to write it...it sounds so presumptious and cocky for a human to say this to God. At the same time if God does not move then all is lost and we will continue to be overwhemed by the enemy that is before us. In the end God is so in control and we flitter around as though we better hurry or God will not get His due.also this quote-- "Signs and wonders are for today, I believe that, yet they are not the goal or thing that we need to seek." This is true--we are to seek first the kingdom of God and the rest will be added unto us. We put way to high a priority on seeking these for ourselves or even for loved ones. The real and only reason to seek them is to use the power it would bring to the Word God gives a person to further His Kingdom. The signs and wonders are but a road sign (a giant road sign) pointing to God and away from ourselves. Praise God for who He is...pray that He will bring us into being who He says we are.Blessings to you Jeff